Rock Opera and Musical Theatre. An exclusive interview with Lenny Kaye

Dedicated to the 40th Anniversary of World Rock Day and the 71st Anniversary of World Rock and Roll Day.

    April 13th and July 13th – are the two dates of annual holidays that are directly related to the musical genre of Rock and Roll and its influence on world culture. Usually, on these days various events, rock ‘n’ roll parties, and rock concerts are held all over the world, during which the most outstanding compositions of past years, as well as recent fresh hits, are played.

   We had an exciting conversation with Lenny Kaye – an American guitarist, composer, songwriter, musical journalist, and historian, about rock opera productions in various countries. Staged musical performances with this name first appeared in the late 60s. The title of the “first rock opera” is contested by Tommy – created by the rock band The Who, and S.F.Sorrow – by the British band The Pretty Things. Over the past half a century the Top 10 most successful theatrical rock opera productions include: Jesus Christ Superstar (1971), Starmania (1979), Juno and Avos (1980), The Legend of Jimmy (1990), Freudiana (1990), Rent (1996), We Will Rock You (2002), American Idiot (2004), Caamora: She (2006), Mozart. Rock Opera (2009), Rock of Ages (2009).

Jesus Christ Superstar was the first rock opera written for musical theatre by Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice. More often, concept albums of famous rock musicians or the creative legacy of rock bands would be turned into rock operas and produced, created on the principle of jukebox musicals.

Lisa Monde: How do you, as a rock musician, feel about rock operas?

Lenny Kaye / Photo Credit by WENN

Lenny Kaye: I like the idea of rock operas. Sometimes they can be very illuminating, especially when telling a literary story. I am more of an abstract appreciator of the written word. So, when someone is trying to create a concept and find the songs to fit that concept, I almost find that to be a backward approach. I like to look at the songs and see how the story erupts. But there’s no doubt that The Who’s Tommy or even Quadrophenia, S.F. Sorrow by The Pretty Things, and other conceptual works blur the boundaries between opera and theatre.

I’ve seen a couple of jukebox musicals and liked them a lot. I actually saw one that hasn’t gotten to the Broadway stage yet but is really excellent. The story of Dion, I think it’s called The Wanderer – I saw it in a workshop, and it struck me – this should be seen.

I find that the two forms, rock, and opera, need to each give up something to “come together.” It’s kind of like a marriage. You can’t have it leaning one way or the other – there will have to be artistic compromises made. I have to say, when I saw The Who performing Tommy at the Metropolitan Opera House, I was truly impressed. It was a proper theatrical presentation. It is rock theatre and opera combined because in opera they sing all the intermediate dialogue as well. And there’s quite an emphasis on staging. I would also single out Roger Waters: The Wall, I saw that with Pink Floyd. And that was an example of a concept that was also represented in its staging. But again, most musicians are not actors. And actors, you know, can be musicians, but they view the art differently. And you must be very delicate with each.

LM: I completely agree with you and the shows that you’ve mentioned, for example, Tommy – I saw the revival of Tommy on Broadway recently. I remember listening to the original soundtrack of Tommy and seeing some videos from the past – it was quite different. What we saw on Broadway was a rock concert, essentially. It was kind of disappointing. I expected much more. It was not about the music anymore; it was a spectacle and the music got “lost somewhere along the way…”

LK: In a certain way, what is a better rock opera than the West Side Story? Maybe it hasn’t got the heavy rhythmic underpinning, but to me, that is the pinnacle of telling a story through music. I mean, Carousel as well, my actual favorite play. I played Jigger Craigin, Billy’s friend, in the Tel-Hai Camp production. So, I know it quite well. It is structured like a rock opera would be.

LM: So, you’ve had your moment in the musical theatre spotlight for a bit?

LK: Yes, but I’m not a good actor. (laughs) Let me tell you, in some shows it works, and I appreciate the genre of musical theatre, like the older shows from the Golden Age. But that was the soundtrack to my youth. And to me, there’s not a lot of difference between, say, Puccini and Rodgers and Hammerstein, except, you know, Billy Bigelow is not just singing, but acting through his lines. I like it when things blend. I think it’s exciting. You know, if pop music just stayed pop music and if the theatre just stayed what it is – it would be boring – I like to mix and match. I think it provides interesting combinations of things that are beyond definition. I’m all for that kind of experimentation. When one genre doesn’t overshadow the other, however.

LM: Well, since we’ve started with the jukebox musicals and rock operas, and I’m personally a big fan of those myself… there were two rock operas that I love and would like to discuss with you. We Will Rock You, based on the music by Queen. The show never made it to Broadway. I saw it on West End years ago – such a beautiful show, featuring a surreal futuristic story with the music by the legendary Queen. And Green Day’s  American Idiot.

LK: I’ve never seen either of those. I would think that American Idiot is kind of a quasi-concept record that doesn’t tell a specific story.

LM: It does. It was a story loosely inspired by the lives of the members of the band. I loved that show, and I was very upset that it didn’t last long on Broadway.

LK: I think they should make a Ramones jukebox musical!

Constantin Maroulis and cast of Rock of Ages, Broadway / Photo Credit by Joan Marcus

LM: When it comes to these jukebox rock operas – do you think they are “a monument” to the rock band that they’re about or the music of which is being used in it, or are they more of a token of affection for the band?

LK: I’d say it’s more of a token of affection. And for people who are fans of that band’s music, it’s not completely different from a tribute band. There are a lot of them in this universe, and they fulfill a certain function. You’re only going to get to see Queen or The Grateful Dead once if they come your way, but you can still go and experience their music. I mean, weirdly, it’s kind of like your local bar band doing some greatest hits and then the surrounding mise-en-scène, as they say, elevating it. But I think they speak to people who are fans. The Jersey Boys, I’m sure a lot of the spectators of that show were Four Seasons’ fans who were a little bit nostalgic for their youthful Garden State attitude. I think they all serve a purpose as long as people are having a good time. I would say that Nuggets, those 12 shows I did, celebrating my anthology of “garage rock” was kind of like a jukebox musical… We were playing a part. One time with Patti’s band [Patti Smith] we opened a concert at the Fillmore Ballroom. The whole band was dressed in the duds of the Summer of Love, and we played such hits as White Rabbit, songs by The Mothers of Invention, and The Grateful Dead. You know, we were kind of our own jukebox musical. It’s great when people pay tribute to great music. And I would go see the Velvet Underground jukebox musical, for example. But I don’t think they’ll be making that anytime soon.

LM: You never know. But why do you think that type of rock opera – the jukebox rock opera – is so popular?

LK: It’s a way to gather audiences. The state of the plays, from my limited perspective, is in recess these days. Who are the great playwrights? You know, a lot of them are working Off-Off-Broadway, but you don’t see new Eugene Ionesco’s or even Edward Albee’s – those kinds of serious playwrights, getting their shot on Broadway.

It’s usually aligned with something else… There was that musical Stereophonic… the one that kind of sideways Fleetwood Mac’s story. I think that’s a way for Broadway to expand its audience. I went to see the Fela Kuti Broadway play, which was fantastic. The band of the show was led by my friend Jordan McLean from Antibalas. That was an amazing window into Nigerian music, which is not your easiest sell on Broadway, but it did draw interest at the box office. I mean, we’re show folk, let’s put on a play! You need to get the people in there. Where is the new Death of a Salesman? Sure, we have Hamilton, which I guess would be a modern-day equivalent of something like the West Side Story. But that’s not the same.

LM: What music do you usually listen to when you’re not “working” on music?

LK: I spend a lot of time, aside from listening to what I personally like, when I’m in the car, listening to TikTok radio because I’m curious to hear what “the sound of today” is. I won’t make music like that, but perhaps I’ll steal a trick or two. You never know… But, in the end, I believe music and theatre exist in the present tense. It’s amazing to me that opera has lived on for as long as it has. There’s a classical form of music that should always be obsolete. You know music once it’s there.

LM: What do you think of rock operas based on opera librettos? Aida and Orpheus and Euridice, Hadestown. Why do we use opera librettos as the basis for successful rock operas?

LK: A good, powerful story is always gold. I think most people who use the word “rock opera” don’t know what “opera” is. What it means. It’s like when in the sixties during the times of the New York Rock and Roll Ensemble – it wasn’t what you would call “classical rock.” But I love it when people take things and mutate them. I mean, you see this all the time in pop music. Look at how Patti Smith evolved Gloria from Van Morrison’s original version. It happens all the time with sampling, and in the end, we’re all in some big cultural stew where you reach in and grab something and try to visualize it and harmonize it through your own eyes and ears.

I think the story of Aida is pretty universal. I mean, it’s all about love and no matter what the “decoration” of a song is, whether it’s by guitars or synthesizers or just, you know, acoustic instruments or full orchestras – the song is the same. It’s all about “I want love,” “I need love,” “I don’t feel good about myself,” “How can I empower myself?”, “Who am I?” All of our “issues” stay the same, especially in the realm of love. That’s the basis of most songs, no matter whether we’re talking about Enrico Caruso or Nelly Melba, or some new pop star. The Song remains the same and why we express what we express in it. It’s only about… accessorizing the fashion of it. We don’t dress like we did in the 1920s. Probably a bit sad, but that’s okay. On the other hand, the human being inside – their hopes, dreams, wishes, and desires are all the same.

Lenny Kaye, New York, 2018/ Flip These Houses Concert/ Photo Credit by Pacific Press

LM: We express ourselves through song – “music is meant to touch the emotional soul” – that’s how you put it in one of your interviews. Beautifully said, by the way. Many rock operas reflect the issues within society at the time when they were written. Let’s talk about the famous rock opera Hair!

LK: Back when Hair was written, it was true in the social sense. Such a story could either get you beaten up or picked up. What is more dated than Hair at this point? But it’s brutally honest. Not every rock opera deals with social issues though…

LM: Shows like Hair were relevant back when they were written, but they are still getting revived and are still popular.

LK: Of course, people love those songs, and they also want to remember that time. When liberation was in the air. Now things are different. It’s as simple as that. We want to remember our youth. And I’m curious whether modern Hair would attract a modern 20-something audience.

LM: Let’s talk about such a pivotal rock opera as Jesus Christ Superstar. It celebrates its 55th anniversary next year. I got a chance to interview Sir Tim Rice. And we talked about how Tim and Andrew Lloyd Webber wrote the show and how it came about. What are your thoughts on the masterpiece that is Jesus Christ Superstar and how the creators used rock music in the biblical story?

Ted Neeley in Jesus Christ Superstar Movie, 1973/ Photo Credit by All Star Picture Library

LK: I have to say I’ve never seen it. Of course, I know the music and I know the story. But my taste in theatre is more Off-Off-Broadway. So only occasionally I would go see something like The Man of La Mancha and Cats.

I like the idea of rock operas on biblical subjects. I like the fact that the lead singer of the Norwegian black metal band Mayhem – Attila Csihar – played a part in Jesus Christ Superstar after he left Mayhem. I thought that was a really good approach. I would have liked to have seen Chris Cornell in that production. But I really can’t comment on its place in the rock opera world, not having seen it.

LM: I’ve seen the movie version, and I’ve seen different productions of it, I performed in one of the productions of Jesus Christ Superstar. But what I loved about the production that I was in was that they followed the “classic” rock opera rules: we had no set, it was a black box theatre, it was more like a tribute concert basically. We had handheld microphones in our hands, and it was all about the music. Nothing distracting, nothing too theatrical. It was a real rock concert/rock opera to me.

LK: That’s how it should be done. Music needs to be the leading character of a rock opera.

LM: Rock operas appear all around the world. Many originated here in the US, and some come from England. France and Russia too. I’ve mentioned a couple of French rock operas such as The Legend of Jimmy and Starmania. There is a French rock opera Mozart l’Opéra Rock, even though I’d categorize it more as a pop musical. And then in Russia, there was the rock opera Juno and Avos. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of Juno and Avos. Honestly, it’s probably the only rock opera from Russia. Orpheus and Eurydice was another Russian rock opera. Stephen, the King – a Hungarian rock opera. But mainly rock operas come from English-speaking countries like the US and England. And I wondered if there was an explanation for that.

LK: I think Rock and Roll is an English-speaking genre. And it does translate, but if you look at the roster of the Hall of Fame, it’s all England and the US, and occasionally Canada. I tried to get Johnny Hallyday into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame to have an actual non-English speaker there, but, you know, it didn’t take. I mean, we have a cultural hegemony over Rock and Roll.

The one thing I’d like to say though, is that these rock operas might use the instrumentation of rock, but the attitude of rock, which is somewhat disruptive, somewhat antagonistic, somewhat opposed to being placed neatly within borders – is just not there. I believe rock and roll is a revolutionary form that is not as “tidy” as people would say it is. It kind of revels in its sense of confrontation. And so, when we’re talking about rock operas, even if there are drums, bass guitars, and theatrical presentations about it, it’s more akin to the kind of theatrical presentations that we see in the arena shows, as opposed to, utilizing rock tropes. But in terms of the spirit of Rock and Roll as defined by Little Richard and early Elvis Presley, and the 1960s bands, it kind of cannibalized all other musics to make their Rock and Roll.

I don’t hear much Nirvana in musical theatre, I wish… I don’t hear punk rock. I don’t hear Rock and Roll’s obstreperous impact. And so, I tend to view most rock operas as art pieces that kind of utilize rock to expand the theatrical presentation.

Rock and Roll as a genre is not easily defined and in musical theatre it becomes “manicured,” from my viewpoint, because I’m kind of on the fringe of Rock and Roll, I like its disruptiveness. I think rock operas are a little too well put together to have the spirit of rock and roll that I gravitate towards.

LM: I can see that. As they say, the best things are born out of chaos, right?

LK: Just like the universe was created out of chaos.

LM: I have always gravitated towards rock music. I was raised on classical music, and I began my career as a classical singer. I was all “proper and classical” until my brother introduced me to Black Sabbath. Paranoid. That was the day I fell in love with rock music. 

LK: See? Where’s the Black Sabbath jukebox musical? I’d go see that one.

LM: When we talk about rock, we talk about rock, punk rock, rock and roll, garage rock, all of it is “rock” and all of these subgenres are very different. It seems like the definition of “rock” is blurry.

LK: I mean, I hate definitions. Very early in my life, I had a record by a group called The Red Crayola by Mayo Thompson from Texas, one of those weird psychedelic bands that were on the international artist’s label. And on the back of it, they had a little aphorism, which I’ve taken to heart. It said, “Definitions define limits.” And I like that saying. It’s like with Patti, we’ve never defined ourselves. You know, we want the freedom to do a catchy song with a chorus that might make you want to dance to a long stream of improvisation with lots of distorted noise and just to see where it goes.

In my book, Lightning Striking, I talk about how all of these genres have a five-year lifespan because they begin amorphously: some musicians get together and then they form bands and they don’t really have a defined sound and then over the following year or two you can say they sound like Liverpool in 1962, or Detroit in 1969, or of course, New York in 1975. Suddenly there seems to be an attitude in the music. Musicians gather their collective energy and become something that sooner or later gets a name, whether it’s Rockabilly or the British Boom, or in New York’s case – Punk Rock, or in Seattle’s case – Grunge. And then suddenly, the sense of expanse shrinks. And four years down the road, it becomes a cliche and a stereotype where, you know, Seattle is all about Grunge and New York is Punk Rock… Even though if you look at the original bands clustered around CBGB [a New York City music club opened in 1973. An iconic venue for punk rock and new wave bands. Country, Bluegrass, Blues], they were as different from each other as can be. They just had a sensibility that sooner or later got defined as Punk. And by the fifth year, there’s no magic. There’s no unpredictability. It’s figured itself out. It’s a stereotype. And that’s when it’s time to move on. So basically, bands mainly have their own inbuilt destructiveness in them. You can’t define my musical taste because I am all over the map. I like bebop jazz, I like reggae, I like classical music. I may not aspire to any of it, but you couldn’t say that I only listen to blues, for example. And all these musics have their inbuilt lifeline.

I think what’s very true about Rock and Roll now is that everything you could do with an electric guitar has been done twice over. You know, it’s not to say that the music isn’t there for inspiration or evolution or to find something within it that inspires you, but the sense of motion. It’s not a music of innovation anymore. It’s the music of interpretation in the same way that the blues is, in the same way bebop jazz is, and the same way Chopin is. You’re not going to find a better romantic piano player in that mold who’s going to do something different than Chopin.

Patti Smith and Lenny Kaye performing at the Villa Arconati Festival in Italy, 2015 / Photo Credit by Rodolfo Sassano

LM: We’ve touched upon the subject of rock entering the world of musical theatre and developing within it. Now, how do you think the genre of rock and roll will evolve in the near future?

LK: To me, the evolutionary development of Rock and Roll has kind of come to an end. There’ll be many rock bands and I’ll continue to play the music till the day I get a gig in the Celestial Band. But that said, musics have a lifeline and I’m all for it. I don’t want to hear the stuff that has already been done. I want to hear the future. That’s why I listen to modern pop music, because I’m hearing the textures. Not a lot of guitars in there. It’s all about the new digital tools that you can make music from. And that’s how music evolves. I’m all for the soundtrack of the present as it becomes the future. Patti has an aphorism: she says, “Progress isn’t keeping up with the present. It’s the future.” And I believe that. I may not participate in it the way I did in the past, I don’t know, half a century. But that’s okay because I gift it to the future generations and let them make of it what they will, even if they think we’re old-fashioned. Good. Because then it’s theirs to create new fashion out of it.

LM: Beautifully said. What does the term “rock opera” mean to you as a rock musician?

LK: If you call something a rock opera, what does it mean? Is it going to be like Puccini? Is it going to be like The Who? Is it going to be some weird concept that not only uses rock but uses other forms of something? I think it’s about bursting apart the definition and creating something new. And in the end, that’s what we’re about. We don’t want to retread the past. I don’t want to be in a blues band. Blues has been figured out. You know? Bebop jazz has been figured out. Dixieland Jazz has been figured out. They’re all great. And when I want to listen to something, I’ll listen to Howlin’ Wolf or Charlie Parker or King Oliver. They’re there. But I’ll listen to them and maybe I’ll find something to take with me into the music I make today and tomorrow.

LM: You find inspiration everywhere… What would you say did rock opera give to the world of musical theatre? How was it able to enrich it?

LK: Well, I think this is a concept that came out of the 1960s when rock omnivorously seemed to devour all other genres of music – rock was cannibalizing anything, even classical music. It was experimental, tracks that would be ten minutes long appeared… Rock turned into something more than an adolescent preoccupation, even though it always retained that. It became part of world music where it could participate in any art. You had classical, but you also had jazz, where we didn’t use the same chords, but that same sense of improvisation from jazz and structure from classical music found its way into a group like The Grateful Dead. Rock and Roll brought a new sense of rediscovery to something like opera too and gave birth to Rock Opera!

LM: Do you believe rock opera gave a new life to the genre of opera in a sense?

LK: I have this box set of La Boheme. I’ll give it a spin every once in a while. I believe that all musics influence each other. And no matter how you try to scissor them together, they’re going to retain elements of their own. And so, what rock did was in a sense make music more universal. It’s this definition thing that gets in the way. It wasn’t just rock and opera. It was about curiosity and blending the two things together. Sometimes it led to more successful results. Sometimes rock music got tamed by being in this theatrical setting. And at times it helped open up opera to become more expansive and unkempt. And that’s how a new breed appeared that will possibly have a grandchild that will do something with all of these elements and bring something new to it in the future.

LM: If you were to write a rock opera, what would it be? What story would it tell?

LK: Interesting… How about Adam and Eve? We can do it together: I’ll write a song about an apple and a serpent, and we’ll have a hit!